John Bush Takes Us Inside Anthrax's 1990's Era | Exclusive Interview

Thank you for listening. This is a Legends podcast by All Day Vinyl, and I'm your host Scott Dudelson. After you finish this episode, please subscribe, rate, and check us out on Instagram and YouTube at All Day Vinyl. Today I'm excited to speak with a heavy metal legend. My guest began his career as a founding member lead singer of Armored Saint, and then from 1992 to 2005, fronted one of the most influential metal bands of all time, Anthrax. As singer of Anthrax, he recorded four albums of original material, and later this year my guest will be performing a handful of live shows, celebrating his work with the band, and I'm excited to speak with them today about these concerts and his career with Anthrax. Pleased to introduce to you, John Bush. What's up, Scott? So John, thank you so much. How are you, man? Amazing, man. So let's start and talk about the upcoming shows. This is the first time I'm assuming since you left Anthrax in 2005 that you've had an opportunity to really dig back into this catalog. Yeah, that's accurate. I came back after I left the band officially around March, April of 2005. The last tour I did was in South America, and then I left for a while, and then I left, and the plan was to be gone, and they were going to continue on without me. Then I came back and I did some few shows because they were in a bind where they needed a replacement for a couple of different reasons, and I came back and did a show outside of London in Nebworth, in England, and also in Tokyo, which was the great show there, and then a festival there as well, and then Nebworth was a festival, and then we also did a few shows in Australia, the Soundways Festival, and so then I kind of came back in and did like another ten shows, but I was never really planning on coming back, it was just kind of to help out the band, those shows were already booked, and that's it. So that, I guess, efficiently the last time I played a lot of these songs was probably some of their neighborhood of like, I think those shows are maybe 09, maybe? No, maybe sooner, 07, I don't know, somewhere around there, but it's been a long time since I've played a lot of this material, so I'm learning it again, I'm relearning it. Is it coming back quickly, when you hear it, is it bringing back memories? It is, it's cool, I'm stoked in the fact that I actually remember the song is a lot of them. There's some deep tracks, obviously, that I have to work a little harder with, lyrically and memorizing stuff, but for the most part, it's actually pretty awesome, I think, stuff's coming back real quickly to me, so it's really going to be the deeper tracks that are ones that I'm going to probably struggle with to remember, but the hits, if you will, those are pretty easy. Yeah, the hits of the ones you've got to play, how do you decide with the deep catalog, what you're choosing? I think it'll be fun to play some songs that are just kind of ones that you aren't expecting. I think that's important for me to do that, and I want to do that, so I'm taking a record by record and going, okay, these were videos tracks, so these are obvious songs that took play, like only in Room for One More, those are pretty popular songs from that record, including Black Lodge, which is a song that is a really cool tune, but we never really played it live very much, F at all, so it's going to be really cool to play that song live, which Angelo Bala de Mente was the guy who wrote a bunch of the music on that. We're going to talk all about that song, that's one of my favorites on the album. My introduction to anthrax was that era, and it was Beavis and Butthead, who loved anthrax. Yes, as a matter of fact, my wife and I have been watching all the Beavis and Buttheads from 22-23, I guess were the more recent ones that came out, and they're hilarious. We've been spending the last couple of weeks just watching them all, because I never really watched those. Of course, I know they're all the ones, and it's cool, because those are the ones, some of them were Beavis and Butthead, or older men, and it's hilarious, but yeah, my judge was helpful for anthrax for sure, and we ended up doing a thing in the studio with my judge on that Beavis and Butthead record, where we did a little clip where we were talking to them and telling stories, and to be in the studio with my judge watching him do those voices was quite amazing. That's incredible, was that on the soundtrack that had the Beastie Boys cover? That's true. That's it. Looking down the barrel of the gun song, and it was cool. It was a million record, selling a million-selling record, and I have a platinum record at home before it. Yeah, I think that's a cultural thing. I think that was the introduction for a lot of people to anthrax. Yeah, it's funny, because anthrax is known in the 80s. They're always good now. That's when they started and became this really juggernaut of a band, and forever, they'll always be associated with the 80s, as far as the thrash metal movement, and all the big four, and all the bands that came out during that time, but I joined in the 90s. I joined in 92, and they parted ways to join Belodona, and I got the job, so I joined, and so a lot of people who are coming of age during that time, that's when they discovered the band. That's the cool thing about doing these records, I mean, doing these shows and conjunction with those records, is that still a lot of people are associated with that particular time, because that's, like I said, that's when they discovered music, and you know how it is, when you're growing up, those formidable years, when you really start loving bands and discovering music, I mean, for me, it was the 70s, and Black Sabbath, and UFO, and then Lizzy, and Judas Priest and Zeppelin, I mean, it goes on and on, and that's, forever, those records are going to be just part of my life, and deep, deeply. And that's how it is for a lot of people, of course, and so for the 90s, and that part of the anthrax, it was, and it's kind of, it's been put in a, let's say, maybe in a little chamber for now, you know, for a long time, it's kind of been hidden stuff, that I understand they don't, they don't play a lot of that material, but they really don't play any of that material. They play it only a bunch of times, but for the most part, they haven't really played anything else, and I get it, I really do, I understand, they have a lot of other material, they've made a couple of records since the reformation, and getting back Joey Belladano on top of the fact that they have the whole 80s catalog, but, you know, for me, it's like, well, that's a part of my life here, and if I don't show it some life, it'll just go completely away, and it has been away for a bit, and it just felt like the time for me to do it. So, finding those deep tracks, coupling them with the hits, and I've been creating a set list, and it's a little lengthy right now, probably gonna have to shave it off a little bit for my own sanity and the guys who are gonna be backing me up musically, because it's a lot of work. Absolutely, I knew that's Category 7, which is your other band, with Joey Vera. Well, Joey is filling in for Jack Gibson, who is the bass player in Category 7, but he had a scheduling conflict, so I got Joey, who's my right-hand man in St. Jason Bittner. Jason Bittner, awesome drummer, comes right out of the Charlie Binanti School of Drumming, and he's incredible. And he filled in for Charlie at some point, and so did Joey Vera. Yes, he, Joey Vera, who's there for, filled in for Frankie a few times, as a matter of fact, Joey played in anthrax a few times after I left the anthrax, which is funny. Phil Demel, who's a guitar player, and plays with Carrie King, and numerous bands, excuse me, and also Michael Lando, who's an awesome guitar player, who played in the band Adrenalin Mob, and he's just off the charts as a player, so those guys are gonna be backing me up and helping me out. Yes, we agree, Joe. Yeah. I want to talk to you a little about, you know, your history, getting involved with anthrax and, you know, celebrating this era that you're gonna be celebrating at the Whiskey, and you also playing the Whiskey in LA, playing New York, in Chicago, we're in Chicago, we're in New York. In Chicago, it's a place outside of, but outside of Chicago, it's in St. Charles, Illinois, it's called Arcada Theater, and then the one in New York is called, I think it's called the Ratchet Club, or Ratchet Hall, or sorry, I think that Ratchet, and that's in New York City, it's like in the Bowery area of New York, it used to be the Bowery Ballroom, and I think it's called the Ratchet Club now, and that's gonna be fun, I've been playing, I did play there with anthrax back in the 90s or early 2000s, so, but yeah, these three shows were kind of spaced it out, so it's kind of covering every territory in America, and the West Coast, Midwest East Coast. Well, tell me, what was your first introduction, not two anthrax, but to the music of anthrax? I remember seeing anthrax at the Santa Monica Civic right here, probably down the street from us. Yeah, it's really close, as a matter of fact, I love the Santa Monica Civic, I wish they had shows that are more often, they haven't for years, I don't know what's going on in there, it's, they haven't knocked it down, they've been threatening to do shows every year too, I'll see something. Oh, really? Yeah, but they haven't. Yeah, I don't know. Like I said, LA, we have a tendency to knock everything down, that's cool and old, unfortunately, but they haven't knocked down the Santa Monica Civic yet, thankfully, but I saw so many great shows there, and I played a lot of great shows there with Armored Saint, we played with Ted Nugin, and I think we played there with actually Michael Shanker as well, and Saxon, and so it's a great venue, and I saw anthrax there, I think Testament opened, I think it was among the living tour, so, but I also saw anthrax opening for Raven at the Country Club, which is a legendary venue in Los Angeles out in the Valley in Recita, and I saw them opening for Raven, and I think that was like 1984, 85, and that was after the year that Raven and Metallica went out and toured together, so the next year was Raven and Anthrax, and I saw them there, and that they were awesome, and it was the fistful of metal tour, so. Did you have, or in the years before joining the band, did you have a relationship with any of the members? Not really, not really, but I knew Scott a little bit because you know, he's Scott, he's just, you know, I think our paths cross somewhat, but I don't really think I ever met them too officially before actually going to the first rehearsal of kind of auditioning, and then I got to, you know, like, hello Charlie, hello Frankie, hello Dan, Scott, I think I've met a few times, but yeah, I don't, I don't think we, you know, I'm sure our paths crossed and we probably were somewhere where maybe we had a brief conversation, but it was brief up until that point, so it was funny, and that was, I can't remember the place we rehearsed for the first time when I went in audition, but that was in 92 before I officially joined the band, but it was cool to get to know them, and you know, again, these guys are legends and amazing musicians, and contributed so much to the world of heavy metal. Absolutely. And what, you know, at that time when you were asked to join Anthrax, you had just released a record with Armored Saint, and you were, I mean, what, tell me about that time and how better to come to be that you got offered this opportunity, and what was in that decision to leave, because these are obviously your bandmates for the last eight years, your closest friends growing up, how does all that play into this, this opportunity? Well, we just made the record simple salvation, which is a record that was kind of almost, almost didn't happen, because the main guitar player in our band day, Pritchard passed away from leukemia, and he was, you know, the main guitar player and big songwriter in the group. And we had to go through his illness and his passing, and it was just a devastating time, about 89 to 90, and going through that was very, very difficult. We wrote a bunch of songs that we didn't know if you're going to see the light of day during that time. We had been dropped by our label, Crystals Records, which was, that happened around 88. So we made three records with Crystals after signing to them and getting our first major record contract. And then we got dropped, and then we found out about Dave's illness, and having leukemia back in, like, 1988, 89 was not good, because it was something that most likely led to people's death, and Dave was an adopted child. So the objective was to get a bone marrow transplant, but he didn't have a sibling because he was adopted. So it really lowered the possibilities of finding anything that wouldn't match. So they had to wait for a match for him to have even a chance to go in and have a transplant. And this is, again, 1989. But in that time, we would just keep writing the songs, going to be like, well, the one thing we can be sure of is that we are musicians, and we can make music, and we can use this kind of difficult time and uncertain time to just kind of go deep and see what we can pull out musically and lyrically. And so we did, and then we ended up writing the songs that were eventually recorded on single salvation. That came on 91, but that was, he actually had passed away before that, and we kind of regrouped, bringing back Jeff Duncan, Phil Sandivall as the two guitar players who were in the band different times, who played with Dave at different times. So we brought them back and decided to make this record, and it was an awesome record into this day. A lot of people view that as our cornerstone album, whatever that means. But it was. It was amazing. But I think so much went into that record, and I wouldn't say expectations, but there was just a lot of emotion that went into that album, and everything, the process of going through what Dave was going through, writing those songs, recording those songs eventually, him passing away, and then going back out on tour and trying to make it happen. And remember, this is like 1991, so the beginning of the grunge movement, and things were just morphing, and things were changing, and Armored saying it was just where we weren't really there. Like, we were there musically. We made this amazing record, but we just were not really going to be part of this change that was taking place. So we had a couple of tours that were a struggle. We had a couple of good ones. We went out open for the scorpions in Germany, like six or seven shows, replacing the band Tesla, who was opening, and those were big awesome shows. But the future was still very uncertain, and then as it had it, as it came, then anthrax contacted me because they parted ways with their singer, and so it was like, what am I going to do here? I'm going to say no to this, and I couldn't, so I didn't. But it was still a real challenging moment to say, I'm going to leave the band and go into this other band, and I felt a lot of guilt doing that a lot, but it's the way, it's now in retrospect, that was the path of my life I was supposed to go, and it did. You all came back together to produce a lot more records. We did. We found our way back together in the end of the 90s, sorry, around 99, and then we decided to start writing songs for another record in case we could. Anthrax was taking a break themselves. They were doing a couple different things, so we all kind of said, let's do some other stuff. I mean, Joey started working on tunes that eventually led to the record revelation, which came out in 2000. We had some new music that we wrote for that record, and then we also had some old material, so we had a combination of some material that we knew we had in the bag as well as some new stuff that we were feeling really good about. But I was never leaving Anthrax at that point. It was just going to be a little hiatus. And when you joined Anthrax, I mean, with Armored Saint, you were a primary songwriter. And with Anthrax, Joey was not a songwriter, it was Charlie or Ian or Scott. Was there a question of whether you would be able to contribute, obviously you did? And that's a big part of it, and that's a change in that sound. Right. I wanted to, because I was a main songwriter and Armored Saint, so I didn't want to just come join some band and be told what to do. Of course, I'm a teen player and open-minded, and Scott writes awesome lyrics, and he was the key lyricist in Anthrax in the 80s, so I was, of course, saying, yeah, let's write your stuff and let me write some stuff, and we'll put it together, and we'll see what we come up with. But yeah, I wanted to be part of the songwriting, because that would have been just disappointing to be told what to do. It wasn't really what I wanted to do, so musically, I wanted to be part of the songwriting. And I think that was a big plus, and they welcomed that because they wanted this new life of blood to be resurrected into it, and it did, and we made Sound of Wine Noise, which is a record that really fills like a 90s heavy metal record. It came out in 93, who wrote all that stuff in round 92, and I remember hearing the riff for only the first time when they said, this is one of the ideas, and I went, wow, that sounds really cool, and just cutting edge, and I was impressed, so, and we ended up writing that song. I think Scott had the title and the chorus idea, or somebody did, but we ended up writing that song like in one rehearsal, a matter of like an hour, so it was, there was obviously a good camaraderie between us and myself in the band, and then we just continued to work on songs, and I think a lot of people really look back on Sound of Wine Noise as a record that is just kind of a pivotal 90s metal record. Absolutely. It was produced by Dave Jordan, who produced the armored saint, the cymbal salvation. I did back-to-back records with Dave, actually, it was where. Is that how Dave got involved, or was it by coincidence that he ended on the record? I think it was a coincidence, Dave, he was doing so many things at that time, he did Allison Chains, he was doing James Addiction, what was that other band shoot, escapes me at the moment, but yeah, he was just Red Hot, producer at that time, so I think that was the idea of just, let's get Dave in there and do it, just so happens that, like I said, the record he did before was the armored saint cymbal salvation record, which is funny too, because I was telling you, my wife and I run a casting studio, and right now it's directly across the street from, we moved recently in the last couple of years, but right now we're on Sunset, and it's really right across the street from the recording studio that Dave had, which was El Dorado's studio, and it's kind of like, here's our studio, and El Dorado's here across from Sunset, and then Sunset sounds here, and then the old Catan Fiddles here, it's a place called Supervin now, but we went there many times when it was a catan fiddle and drinking, when I was recording both those albums, so it's cool, it's just funny, I'm there every day for the most part, and going, well, there's El Dorado, and sometimes I ring the bell to see if somebody will answer, just I don't know what I'm going to say, hey, can I come in? I made two records here, but yeah, I was cool, and Dave Jordan, unfortunately, he just died recently, which was very sad, but it was awesome, and he was just a great guy, and just as eccentric, no frills type of guy at the same time, and I love working with Dave, and he made some killer records besides the ones I made in Osprey, and that was the other band he was Red Hot with, and he's awesome, and his legacy will live on. Absolutely, and tell me about the creation of Black Lodge, which is one of the great songs on the record. Yeah, I think Charlie had this idea, because those guys were all into Twin Peaks, the TV show, very into it, and you know, David Lynch, and the music was just really cool, and ambient, and moody, obviously, and the guy, Angelo Balonamenta, did that, so they had this idea of seeing if he would actually, I think he had a songwriting credit, as a matter of fact, so I think he, so I think he added a lot of parts, obviously a lot of strings and stuff, and it was definitely a departure for anthrax on that song, for sure, they had nothing like that before, so it was really cool to do it, and it's a really moody song, and we made a video. It was probably not the right video in retrospect, Mark Pellington, I think his name, director who did the Jeremy video, and was a happening director, and went on to do film and stuff, but it just got, it was too out there, you know, the video is just, it didn't really show the band at all. I think there was one clip of each band member's face that fast, and that was it, we were not in the video at all, as a matter of fact, it's kind of funny, because Jenna Elfman, who went on to be a big actress, obviously, she was, she was starting a career, and she's like the main woman in that video, so, and it was cool, I mean, I like the video, it's weird, and certainly just very moody, but I just don't think it was, it was the appropriate video to showcase the band, and then we put it out second, which was not a good idea either, so we had this crazy, you know, powerful song like only as a first video, and we should have followed up with another song like Room for One More, just to kind re-emphasize what the record was about, but then as it goes, it happens a lot in the music business, the record label's like, go for the valid, go for this, and it's like, not yet, no, we're gonna do it, no, not yet, we're gonna do it, all right, and probably not the best decision, but, but it's still a great song, and it's a killer, it's still a, it's a great musical combination with having Angelou in it, and I have this idea to, hopefully have a keyboard, player, friend of mine, do the keys on Black Lodge Live, so I think it'll be really cool and sound awesome, to hear that. Yeah, and before the record came out, I read that Anthrax had signed like a huge record deal with Electra, and was the sound, this transition in the sound part of this, part of the idea? Well, I think that, you know, it's funny, because Anthrax and Motley Crew both signed these big record deals with Electra, new label. Well, actually, I think Motley was always on Electra, where they kind of signed a new deal. Anthrax was on Island Records, and they both fired their singers, so they signed these big deals, and then they fired their singers, because Vince Nils fired at that time, and I'm sure the label was like, going, wait, what? We just gave you all this money, and now you're firing your singers, what do you do it? So, I'm sure the label was just scratching their head, going, okay, but I think that, for me, I was just like, okay, I'm the new singer, so I'm just embracing it all, but, you know, I think that the 90s, it was a different time. It was a new generation, of course, all the things that were kind of morphing musically that was happening. All these amazing bands, Exxongar, Nelson Chains, Faith No More, all these bands that were really having a lot of impact in the early part of the 90s, obviously, Nirvana, but it was cool. It felt right, it felt like it was time for a change. I don't think that, in retrospect, that we set out to say, we're going to, we certainly didn't want to emulate anybody, and we wanted the band to sound like it did, but we were cool with having this new decade and feeling like some new fresh air coming in, because the 80s felt like the 80s were old at that point. So, and having a new singer, and having a new label, and it all just went part with the change that was happening, and I think that we all embraced it. But I know the band sometimes struggled to say, but we're still anthrax, we're still anthrax, especially as you have a new singer, because Faith Power is saying, well, it sounds different, it sounds different, and it did, because my voice enjoys, they're very different from one another, but it was a struggle to sometimes just to kind of remind everybody, well, it's still anthrax, still anthrax, but when you change singers in a band, it's a big part of the sound, you know, from, from, from, when D.O. John Sabot to Brian Johnson, you know, replacing the late Barnes God, obviously Sammy Hagar, it's a change. It's a very, it's a significant change. So, it seems to happen a lot in metal, or rock and metal. I don't know why that genre, but for many of the times it works out great. I love Sammy, and I love Roth, I love D.O. I love Ozzy. Yeah, it's, yeah, and that's what I always tell people is I always say, you can like both eras, you can have a favorite era, but you can, you know, I have a favorite era, you know, I prefer David Lee Roth to Sammy, and I love Sammy. I mean, I love those, those Sammy records from the 70s. We're great. And Montrose, you know, Rock Candy was a song that we played as a cover band back in the day. So, I love that stuff, but Van Halen, you know, those, that first Van Halen records just kind of hard to beat, but, um, and of course, you know, having an hell, you know, I love paranoia and mass of reality and the first Sabot Almond, Sabot Almond, Sabot Almond, all this Ozzy stuff, but, you know, highway to, I mean, excuse me, um, having an hell is just such a legendary record and mob rules. They're both amazing. So, you know, it's, it's just a change, it's just a change, same with back and black, you know, this is, it's one of the best ACDC records in all time. So, um, it's, it's just a hard thing to do, it's a, it's a big sound change, and, and people's ears got to adjust to it. I, I feel the same, and I get it. So, I feel like Anthrax is such a unique band and the musical influences in it are very diverse, and that's even shown in a lot of the covers that you all created as B-sides. There was some like Husker Dude cover. Yeah, right. There was a Smiths cover. Yeah, out. Obviously, B.C. Boys for B-Vis. Yeah. What were you all listening to? What was the, at that time when you're creating the, the, the record? What do you, what's in that, that stew? A lot of those same, you know, those bands that you're talking about, I know Charlie is a big Husker Dude fan, and the Sugar record was a great record actually that came out then. Um, you know, the cool thing about Anthrax, whether I was in it, and when I, even when I was not in it, of course, uh, I always felt like they were a band that always was willing to take chances. Um, from, you can go back to, on the man, obviously, and, and then that was risky. It really was. Yeah, definitely. Um, and, um, and it worked, and because they, there was a sincerity behind it and, and the belief that we're doing this, because we dig it, and we're, we're gonna just make people believe in it. And I think that was always a philosophy, like I said, whether I was in the band or not, I always felt like they were willing to take those kind of chances. And I think that's really important. Sometimes heavy metal, I've said it before, and I might get some grief for it, but, you know, metal is, is counterculture of a scene as it is. It can sometimes almost become a little conservative because it's like, you do have to have this imagery. And, you know, you can't, you know, it's, it's, you, it's got to have this certain style and, you know, sound and, you know, so I sometimes think you got to push yourself and say, no, no, the listener, I think he can embrace what we're doing. And we're gonna take a chance and, and challenge that. And I think that's important, you know, because I love all music. I don't love just metal. I love everything from jazz to classical to blues to, you know, old school country to, you know, some hip hop to, you know, you name it. I love a lot of pop and mostly old pop, but all music, it's everything. You name it, bluegrass. It's, I want to love all music. So I think if you can find a way to kind of incorporate that in the style of what you do at the same time, not lose a root to that. And we do that normally saying a lot. We're always willing to push the buttons when it comes to challenging ourselves and, and, and, and doing things that we feel like is going to make the listener take a chance and say, I think I, I get this. And it sounds really cool and adventurous. And you're trying different instruments. And, and, you know, it, I think that's really important to do that. And, and, and I like to do that as a musician and as a singer. And, and like I said, we, we certainly do that in armored scene. And, and we, you know, it, it happened in anthrax too. Absolutely. I want to talk about another musician that you've collaborated with who was a big part of the anthrax story and your one of the legends of all time is Dimebag Darryl. Yeah. Who is part of Stomp 442 and volume 8. Yeah. And he's on, he's on, we'll come for you all as well. Yeah, right. Right. There's right there playing a bunch of the songs the other day on Dimebag's birthday. Um, it was funny because I, I, I heard like six or seven songs that I'm on during the anthrax catalog that day. And a matter of like a few hours, I was laughing going, I don't, I've never heard myself this much on the radio as I have today on liquid metal. It's pretty funny. Any, any memories that you could share great stories around Dimebag? Yeah. Well, we had parted waves with dance bits after sound of white noise. And so we never really fulfilled that position as a, as a second guitar player until Rob Codgiano came back. Paul Crook was part of the touring and he recorded stuff on not only Stomp 442, but also volume 8. He also engineered some volume 8 and recorded a lot of my vocals, played some leads and to touring on those two records. And then Rob Codgiano joined on, we've come for you all. And he was kind of like the new guitar player. And he stayed after I left. But, but before that, well, we didn't really have the position kind of solidly locked in. So, I think Charlie had this idea or Scott or both. And that was to have Dimebag because we were really good friends and we had toured with Pantera, I think in 97, 98, to play a couple leads on each record. And it just kind of happened like he did it on Stomp and then he also did it on volume 8. And then we've come for all. It became like this thing, okay, Dimebag's going to play again a couple of tunes. So we would send him various songs and he would choose which ones he thought he'd be right for. So to have the stuff come back and listen to it and go, wow, there's Dime, but on an anthrax tune, it was really, really awesome. And then we ended up touring together, like I said, 97, 98 years. And he was just an awesome human being. He was just a full-of-life guy. Tons of energy. Just him and Vinnie both were just the real deal. Man, Texas boys at their core and amazing musicians. And to be part of a song that he's on is just an honor for me. So when I was hearing those songs that day, I was laughing going, man, it's cool to say my voice is on there with a Dimebag song. You know, a Dimebag lead, excuse me. And it's just great. He's a legend forever. He'll be immortal in music. And Pantera's playing today as a matter of fact, you know, as Angela's father. They are. But you know, and I get it, they're, you know, and now Charlie's in Pantera, which is so funny. But you know, they're carrying it on. And obviously there's a lot of people that never got a chance to see Pantera back in the day. So it is a cool opportunity for a lot of new people to see this band, even though it's missing, of course, the Abbot Brothers. Right. That's pretty cool. Charlie's just an amazing musician. Incredible. Great guitar player. A lot of people don't know that. Exactly. Whenever I'm a photographer, it's we met on that. But whenever I'm photographing anthrax and there's somebody who doesn't know anthrax, it's in the photo pit. And they're not taking pictures of Charlie because people tend to ignore the drummers, fortunately. Unfortunately, I'm like, that's the dude. Yeah, get him. Here's a pass, go on stage and get some shots from behind. Yeah. Yeah. He's an awesome drummer. Incredible. And he's like a great guitar player. And a lot of people don't know. He wrote a lot of those riffs back in the day. Yeah. I'm the man. I mean, excuse me, I am the law, you know, Indians in my world. I mean, he wrote most of those songs musically. Incredible. And another musician who was on the, I don't know what the collaboration it's held, but Roger Daltry of who was on the music. That was the one he did. Yeah, that was the one Daltry did. That was the one he did for we've come for you all. I wasn't in his presence when he did it because I was actually in New York recording and he was here in L.A. doing his part. But that was really another incredible thing to achieve to get Roger Daltry on. How does that come about? I think what happened, if I'm not mistaken, sometimes I'm challenged. I have a pretty good memory, but sometimes gets stuff gets a little foggy here. I think we knew a guy who was his assistant. He was like his personal assistant at the time. He was a friend of the bands. And so, I mean, usually it's Charlie or Scott. There's a catalyst for an idea like that. And they said, hey, man, see if Roger Daltry wants to do a part on a song. And so we asked him and Roger said, yeah, I'll do it. And it was cool. That song is like more of a rock song and it has this kind of like scream where it's I mean, it's not quite like won't get full again, but similar where he does it. Yeah, the end. And it's just vintage Daltry. And you know, it's awesome to have him be part of a song that I'm singing. He's singing. And even though I wasn't there, still that our voices are blended together and it's really, really cool. So I put out the seed because I do want to one idea I have for these upcoming shows in December is to maybe have some different people come out and do, you know, a little bit of a, you know, little special guest part on a song or two. And it would be awesome if I can get Roger to go and sing on one of the songs live. Maybe at the show at the whiskey or something. We'll see. I don't know. He's probably a little busy. But hey, it's a it's a hopeful idea. And if he wants to come out and he's going to be in a couple of weeks for, yeah, the who is playing the ball, right? Yeah, it's true. Well, you know, that's the time to ask. I mean, hey, if I could plan a seed somewhere somehow, that would be awesome. That would be amazing. And then in addition to the shows that you're doing that are subtering anthrax, you've got a bunch of armored scene shows. That's correct. We are coming up with Michael Shankar. That's correct. Yeah, we're going to we're actually doing three shows. We've done a couple tours in the last couple of years now with Wasp, which was cool because Armored Saint and and Wasp did shows together back in, you know, the early 80s. Playing the Trubidor and Perkins Palace. And then we did the tour. That was the infamous Metallica Wasp Armored Saint tour in 1985. And people still talk about that tour. And so we had an opportunity to go on to some dates with with Blackie and the guys. And it was awesome. And we had a lot of fun. And we toured the country in some Canadian dates twice on two different legs. And it was great. So they're going they're in Europe. They're going back to Europe. And they're doing some dates in Britain. And we have the same agent. And he said maybe I can get you guys on these dates in in Britain. So it's only three shows. But we're like, yeah, and they're playing what's called different. It's called the Apollo now. But it's really the infamous London and Hammersmith Odin. Oh, yeah. And you know, you know, no sleep till Hammersmith's recorded there. And so we're like, he goes, you want to play Hammersmith. And we're like, hell yeah. So so we're playing Newcastle, Manchester and and London at the end of next month. So then we're doing those three shows. And then we come back like several days later. And then we start with Michael Shanker. And we're only doing maybe a third to half a Michael's tour because we're doing that. We've already committed to the dates with Wasp in England. But it's going to be cool because we're doing California up to Texas in Mexico and Arizona. And Michael Shanker is just a huge impact on us as fans. And I mean, you know, it was one of my favorite rock fans of all time. And you know, lights out of session. I mean, these are records that are just as far as the top of the chain, as far as on concern. And it's hard rock and heavy metal. And so to go out and do some shows with them, it's going to be a great, great thing. And we're playing the Sabon theater here in Beverly Hills. And the Grove in Anaheim, which I sold out already. And San Francisco and up a couple of dates in Texas. So it's going to be great. You know, it's going to be a lot of fun to watch Michael every night. And he's doing all UFOs. So yeah, so we're honored to be part of that. And we'll hold our own. And we're celebrating the 40th anniversary of Delirious Nomad, which was our second album, which is going to be really cool because we're going to go out and do these kind of like microsets with the Shanker tour. So we're going to do like four or five songs from that record in the middle of our set, which is funny because it's a support slot. We're still going to do it along with a few hits as far as as well. Because you got to do those. But it's going to be fun. And that Delirious Nomad record, Farmer and Sain is a record that a lot of people really look fondly of. It was different, very different than March of the Saint. We kind of, we were immediately rebelled about where we were going as a band a little bit, image wise. And you know, just musically, we were just yearning to kind of still go a little further than we did on March of Saint. Don't get me wrong, March is awesome. It's a great record. A lot of classic anthems on that album. But for Delirious, we were just already feeling kind of more adventurous. So we went with it. And at the time, it probably threw the label for a little bit of a loop. They're just like, what are you guys doing? But in retrospect, looking back, it's a lot of people's favorite album. So I think, you know, at the time, it was kind of a little bit questionable about what we were trying to do. And we probably didn't even know ourselves. But when you look back on Delirious Nomad, there's, you know, long before Dine, nervous man, aftermath, and over the edge. And these are really classic armen saying songs. So so we're going to even dig deeper than that and pull out songs like the laugh and conquer, which we haven't played since, you know, the 80s or if ever. So it's going to be fun. Amazing. Yeah. Was that the the record that you toured with Wasp and? No, that was March of the same. Yeah, it was March of the same. Delirious Nomad came out in 85 and it was weird. We didn't really do much touring on that album, which is not a good idea, obviously. But there was a lot of changes kind of happening in the middle of the 80s. As a matter of fact, the MTV was saying, well, we're not going to play videos for a bit of like hard rock bands. And so we didn't even make a video for that record, which is, you know, never a good idea even in the 80s, especially because we we had just made candy deliver, which was such a big video. And they played it a lot. So again, many times Scott in my career, I go, I can explain or I can't even explain, but mistakes were made, you know, lots of mistakes in Armored St, in an anthrax. What are you going to do? You look back and just kind of I laugh most of the time or just go, oh, that was a mistake. But, you know, I think the Delirious Nomad record still will look we'll be looked at very fondly. And it's, you know, we're going to it's going to be fun to go out and play some of these tunes live, like I said. Absolutely. And you mentioned the, and we talked about the Metallica Wasp, Armored St. Tour. What made that, I didn't see the tour. I've heard about it, you know, talk about. Through the grapevine. Through the grapevine. What made it so memorable? Well, it was our first full-length record. We put out an EP in 83 on metal blade records, courtesy of Brian's Legally signed us and then we put out the three song EP and then that led to getting a deal with Crystalis on a major record company, which is what most bands were trying to do at that time. They used an ND to get to a major and we were no different and we were part of the LA scene that all our peers like Rad and Wasp and Great White and Steeler and we played with all these bands and Black and Blue and Odin and you name it. So like everybody's objective is to try to get a deal and then, you know, it used an ND to get a major deal and that's what we did. Lo and behold, we did come back to metal blade years later and we've been ever since but and happy to be, by the way. But yeah, at that time we were, it was our first full-length record on Christmas, 84 and you know, it was our new record of the 10 songs and it was also Wasp first album that came out and then for Metallica it was right, the lighting. So they had already put out but they were just having this major explosion taking place then and you could fill it and so to have to be part of that tour where Metallica was blown up and Wasp obviously was generating a ton of press and a lot of interest and Armored Sane had a buzz to go out and that tour of the three bands together, you know, it just it was it was a great tour. We played a lot of small clubs and they were packed and crazy. We did the three nights at the Lamores Club in Brooklyn that were infamously packed and sold out and so just to be part of that tour was was really fun and like I said, people still to this day they'll show me they'll pull out the ticket stuff and I was there man, I was there and I'm like cool. Was that the tour in which Metallica asked you to join the band? Well, no, that was actually really before that. I mean, they were actually considering having a singer change during the Killamall time and that's when I got a call from Johnny Z, John Zzzula who was their manager at the time and was putting it was mega force records and and he was, you know, I guess James was still not quite sure if he wanted to be just a lead singer and guitar player. He was for sure going to be the real guitar player, of course, but I guess he was still unsure about singing and so yeah, I got the call. It was hard for me and I try to explain that all the time is that the guy's insane and I we grew up together. We've known each other, we got some Phil and Joey have known each other since like we were nine years old. So and I just turned 62 so we're talking about 53 years now of knowing one of their mean friends and going back to you know, basically the fourth grade. So there was even at that point, even though this is 1983, 82, there was already a lot of foundation of our friendship then, you know, not to mention now, you know, we're talking half a century here, but it was, it was, Metallica was great and they were cool and I saw this upcoming band and it was nobody had the vision of what they were going to become of course. Well, at large probably did, but nobody could foresee that what was going to happen and I don't think that would have changed anything. Obviously, I would have changed thing because I would have changed the voice, but I think that really when it came down to it, I was happy in my band. So I was like, well, I don't want to leave my band, I like my band and so to me it was, it just, I was flattered of course, but I didn't want to just quit my band and we were rolling and doing well. So, you know, I always say that I could have changed the whole face of heavy metal and that's a lot of pressure I don't need. And James Eiffel that I've said this numerous times, I mean James is, he's just an incredible singer, he's really, really come a long way and you know, from Killemall all the way to, you know, the black album and all the records after, I mean, he really just became this incredible singer and he really was a powerful frontman and singer. So, you know, for me, it just, it was, it was always meant to be James to be the voice in Metallica. But it came full circle where you got up on stage with him to play four horsemen, right? I did. Yes, I did. That was another thing that I did do. And it was really, really cool. We went, we played the Phil Maurens after Cisco and, and Armored Stain actually opened that show. It was like four shows they did. It was the anniversary. It was the 30th anniversary shows. And so, they had a lot of various people come and, and play with them of, you know, from Kid Rock to King Diamonds who, you know, Ozzie to Halford to, uh, uh, Lou Reed and Marianne Faithful. I mean, everybody was part of their, their, their history up until that point came out in different times. And that, there was four shows and we opened the one. And then, then I came back out and, and they, they told the story of like the Asus guy and he said no. And, you know, here he is John and, but this is what it would sound like if he would have joined and we played the four horsemen. And it was, you know, obviously a very stellar moment in my life. And it was, it was killer. It was, you know, I treasure that night and, um, you know, I'm honored to, to be there, to be a guy that, you know, I have the chance of being asked to be in that band. And, um, you know, it just was not my fate, but what are you going to do? Another amazing fact about you is you were in the Huey Lewis video, right? I was in the heart of rock and roll, which was a lot of fun. That was a video that, uh, Huey Lewis was on the same label, Christmas records. And, and they were putting out the record sports, or they had put it out. And I was going to be the next single. And we had just made March of the same. And we were waiting for it to come out. And, um, in our record, uh, in our guy, Ron Faire was, he was a great guy. And, and he was just a go getter farmer saying, and many of the ways. And so he, they were, they had this person in the, one of the scenes in the video where he comes out of the, uh, the limo. And he, you know, he looks back. And then the girl follows him and kind of shakes her butt and, and, and that's me in the video. And, um, it was cool to be part of that because, uh, Huey Lewis was red hot at that time. Yeah, it was, it was a great, they made a huge, huge video. It was a great video. You know, uh, he had a few hits on that, on that record, sports album. And, um, and, you know, the guys were super cool. And so I shot the video. And I wore the, the, the, the garb that I wore on stage at that time and had way too much makeup. I guess that's the way they wanted me to look for the video. So in looking back, it was a little silly, uh, for me, but, you know, I went with it because I was like, you know, whatever I was, I was 20 years old and in this video and our record was coming out. And, um, so it's funny. People, you can look back on and have a chocolate. I always do. You know, we, we, at that time, I was saying was wearing this, we thought that the imaging was cool because, uh, we were big fans of like Cooper and Kiss and and Judas Prius and, and you name it. So these bands that had these big images, we thought it was great. And so we had this name, Armored Sain, and we figured why not just kind of, uh, kind of embellish the name with this look. And so we, we got costumes from various sources and made things from telephone pole, um, stuff that we took down that, you know, was we used for reflection and made Joey made his breastplate with that. And I got stuff that was from Western costume, which is a big, um, uh, place that provides stuff for the studios, uh, for, for movies. Um, I think my breastplate was from the Beast Master movie and, um, historic. Yeah, I know, it's funny. So like we were, we were into the image thing at that point because we thought it was cool. And it was kind of like I said, emphasizing the, the whole vibe of the band. Um, it, it took a couple years and finally we were kind of going, yeah, we're kind of getting a little older this, this, this image thing. We don't want it to be the, you know, the primary source of what people think of us when they think musically. So we, we kind of fought it a little bit as time went on and, and then we kind of slowly tapered off to look a little bit. But, um, you know, it, it was part of Armored Sains, look for a while. And, um, and, um, I'm not embarrassed by it, you know, it's, um, it was just, it was just another aspect of our career. But, yeah, it's funny. I was, uh, talking to a mutual friend of ours recently and he had, uh, he, he was mentioning that at one point you had a, he, maybe it was like a glass case with an armor in it and it said breaking. Yeah, yeah. A friend of mine, he, he, he took the white leather vest that I had and, um, and he, he framed it and it was pretty cool and, and then he had it hanging in his house where I live for, for a period of time. And, um, nobody broke it, you know, but, uh, now it's actually at the metal blade museum in Vegas. So, it's cool. Yeah, and it's, it's, you know, my white leather vest. I remember my parents bought me, uh, you know, again, I was, we were so young and, and we went to Bates Leathers, which provide, is a place where you buy, like motorcycle gear, right? You know, so, um, and I b